Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 188897

> Montavilla47:
> By the time Snape gets around to sending Harry into the
> Hall, he's had an entire walk up to the castle with the sulkiest
> seventeen-year-old in the world. (And that's including
> Draco!) He's twice left opportunities for Harry to explain
> what happened, and Harry defiantly sulked back at him.
> 
>  
> Alla:
> 
> Harry does not owe him to explain what happened before he came to Hogwarts, I do not think. 

Montavilla47:
Yes, he does.  He's a student who has disappeared on
the way to school and Snape is the teacher designated to
leave his dinner to collect him.  Harry definitely owes him
an explanation.

Harry also owes Tonks an explanation, but he doesn't 
give her one, either.


> Montavilla47:
> And I'm sorry. It's just not the most humiliating thing
> in the world. Or maybe it's just me.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> I am sorry for being a parrot, but you are not Harry.  I do not mean to keep making  "you centered" argument, believe me they are not my favorite thing in the world, but I honestly do not see how else I can respond to it. I am sympathetic to Harry, I feel for a boy w
> 

Montavilla47:
I'm entitled as a reader to come to my own conclusions 
about such things.  So are you.

I am not obligated to view this as the most 
humiliating punishment ever just because Harry's in
a snit.

Especially not after reading OotP, when Harry spent
the entire book in a snit.  I remember putting that book
down extremely annoyed at Harry.  It was only when I 
distanced myself from him and saw that he was acting
like a rebellious teenager that I was able to get behind
Harry as a character again.


> Alla:
> >
> > Aha, I think I understand. You think Snape had a right to do what he did and
> Harry needed and deserved to get what he got, just as pouty four year old did?
> If so, I have no response, really. I am just getting another confirmation that
> where Harry and Snape are concerned we are reading different books.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> 1. Yes, Snape had a right to do what he did. He's a
> teacher and it's part of his job to exercise authority
> over miscreant students.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Okay, at least I understand where you stand now, I think. You think that teacher can do any thing to a student, right? I mean, I am sure you do not think he can kill a student or anything like that, but basically you think that teacher can walk up to a student and order him to do anything as long as student is at school. If I describe your position correctly, it is certainly not mine. I do not believe Snape can punish Harry for the accident that he does not even know occurred.

Montavilla47:
No, you're stretching my answer to the point of 
absurdity.  Teachers cannot do "anything" to a student.

For example, I do not think that teachers should be 
allowed to make students write lines with quills that 
cut the words into their hands.  I do not think that 
teachers should transfigure students into small animals
and bounce them up and down on stone floors.  I do
not think that teachers should force their students to 
interact with dangerous experimental animals that 
burn them.

It wasn't an "accident" that happened to Harry.  It was 
taking a stupid risk that turned out badly--without
letting anyone know what he was doing.


> Montavilla47:
> 2. Yes. Harry was acting like a spoiled brat and he
> certainly should not have been indulged in that behavior.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Acting as a spoiled brat in your view is what exactly? Being angry at Snape for Sirius' death?

Montavilla47:
Acting as a spoiled brat is refusing to speak to the
person who is talking to you.  And refusing to explain
why you didn't arrive at the place you were supposed 
to be, causing anxiety and disruption at a time when
security is the highest priority in the country.  

Harry can be as angry as he likes at Snape.  But it 
doesn't make his behavior any better just because 
he's angry.


> Montavilla47:
> 3. I think we are. Quite possibly I'm reading a different
> book than the one JKR was writing. But I stand by
> my interpretation of this scene. I'm not gong to say that
> Snape's the epitome of goodness in this scene, but
> I don't think Snape is acting nearly as unjustly as
> Harry believes.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, but if you are saying that Snape was completely justified in what he did to Harry in that scene how is it Snape not acting as epitome of goodness? 

Montavilla47:
There's a huge difference between acting within your
authority as an authority figure and being the epitome
of goodness.

To use an example from my new favorite story:

Zuko is acting within his rights as a prince to fight an
Agni Ki for the throne.  But Aang is acting as the epitome
of goodness when he tries to find a way to avoid killing.

Of course, as everyone tells Aang, he would still be
just to kill his enemy.  It's not *unjust,* it's that being
the epitome of goodness usually entails going beyond
justice to mercy.

> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> Since you ask, yes. Students are expected to behave
> properly, even on the train to Hogwarts. They are not
> expected to invade the privacy of other students through
> the use of magical spying tools (not that Snape
> knows about that).
> 
> They are also not expected to go around breaking
> other students's noses and hiding them with invisibility
> cloaks--but Snape has no reason to know that Draco
> did that, either.<SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Actually I do not remember saying anything about Harry's behavior on the train being justified in any way, shape or form. If Snape had **witnessed** what had happened, I would have fully expected him to punish Harry for it. He however did not, if you are saying that Snape KNOWS about it, well, then he used a legilimency on the student without his permission, which I thought Snape did not do. Then if he knows it, would be nice if he said it out loud, but it seems that you agree that Snape does not know it, so I do not see what Snape was punishing Harry for here.

Montavilla47:
He's not punishing Harry for what he doesn't know
happened on the train.  However, he knows *something*
happened, because he can see that Harry is a) late, 
b) had to be rescued by Tonks, and c) showing signs of 
having been in a fight.

Oh, and d) improperly attired.  

He deducts points for the tardiness and improper 
attire.  He waits for Harry to explain--which might
possibly results in fewer points deducted, but most
likely not, because I don't think Snape would have 
very impressed with any excuse Harry gave.

Instead of explaining, Harry just sulks and hopes that
he can sneak away so that no one finds out he was 
beaten up by Draco.  Well, Snape is not going to 
indulge that hope.  He's going to make sure that 
Harry finally learns (after three similar incidents!) that
he can't hide away from his problems through 
invisibility.


> Montavilla:
> <SNIP>
> Since I know that Harry's already been healed, I
> don't see why I should be upset that Snape doesn't
> send him to the nurse. He didn't send Harry and
> Ron to the nurse in CoS, either. And they had
> just been beaten up by a willow tree!
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, you as a reader know that. Snape does not know that in my opinion. I thought that Tonks have not mentioned anything about asking her patronus to convey a message about Harry's medical condition. Snape is so concerned about the safety of the Chosen one that blood on his face does not concern him, and of course he is simply acting as a teacher within his authority, right? I of course disagree with it, but I would have thought that teacher would have remembered that making sure that students' injuries are healed also within his authority. Unless his authority only works one way – he is allowed to hurt and humiliate Harry as much as possible and what little physical suffering is? As long as Harry is alive, right?

Montavilla47:
Again, I'll just mention that Snape is collecting
Harry from a trained auror and member of the Order.
If she's satisfied about Harry's condition, then he
can safely assume that Harry can wait until he's eaten
to be seen by the nurse.  

Who is probably eating dinner herself.  Come to think 
about it, sending Harry to the Hospital Wing would be 
silly, since Madam Pomfrey would be in the Great Hall 
with everyone else.