Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188985



Alla:
Teenager, who witnessed the death of the classmate needs support of the loved
ones, period. Apparently Dumbledore did not think so.

Pippin:
Dumbledore moves Harry to the safest place he know, as if he feared an imminent
attack. Was that a realistic fear?

Well, Harry didn't know it yet, and neither did we, but Voldemort already had
hordes of Inferi at his command.

<SNIP> I'll take the Dursleys over the zombie hordes,
thank you very much.


Alla:

Huh? As you know I have plenty of issues with Harry living with Dursleys, but this was not my point at all here. Dumbledore does not ALLOW Harry's friends to contact him in the meaningful way over the summer and no, I do not think visit or letter from Ron and Hermione telling Harry what is really going on would have provoked an attack from Voldemort, sorry I find it funny as in extremely implausible way. I will take visits and meaningful letters from his friends over his nightmares and depression, thank you very much. 



Alla:
>
> Um, he did save Harry just on time, didn't he? Birdie told him to be back
surprisingly on time, at the very last minute, but on time nevertheless. And
Harry is a bit hurt? Well, now he knows what Voldemort is capable of.

Pippin:
You can't have it both ways, Alla. Either Dumbledore knew everything that was
going on and always could have rescued the kids if they were in real trouble
(that's what PS/SS Harry wants to believe), or Harry outwitted his protections
(which even clever Snape did not figure out how to do) and went after the Stone
long before Dumbledore intended. That is what Dumbledore claims in OOP and Harry
never doubts.

Alla:

I am not trying to have it both ways Pippin, sorry for being unclear. Yes I believe that Dumbledore knew everything that was going on in PS/SS and always could have rescued the kids if they were in real trouble. I just think Dumbledore and PS/SS Harry have a bit different definition of what "real trouble" was.

Alla:
> So my main point is that this is one in the long list of actions that
Dumbledore presents to Harry as something Harry needs to respect him for.

Pippin:
See, that is one of the things that I don't find mentioned in canon. When does
Dumbledore demand Harry's respect for recognizing that Sirius was innocent?
IIRC, he says it is Harry who has saved an innocent man from a terrible fate,
and Harry's patronus that convinced him Sirius was telling the truth.

Alla:

Ah I see I had been unclear again. Ok, no Dumbledore does not come out and say it, you are right, but I just do not see how it could be any other way, how such action will not make Harry idolize and respect him. What I am trying to say is that Dumbledore does not tell Harry the truth beyond his actions, and thus his actions appear to Harry to be the actions of great nobility, while to me they are the actions of manipulative amoral bastard.

> Alla:
> I think you are mixing up issues here. Saving souls is a very worthy thing as
far as I am concerned; free will as far as I am concerned is also a very worthy
thing. And I cannot respect a leader who takes the free will away from his
subjects, no matter how worthy such goal is.

Pippin:
Whoa! Harry at King's Cross is a pure, undamaged soul, one and the same with his
mind. How can he not have free will? Even Voldemort's soul, or what's left of
it, has free will. He is as he as chosen to be, and no one has the power to save
him from himself any more.

He has chosen independence, and look what it got him.

Alla:

Who has chosen independence? You mean Harry or Voldemort? I do not know how Harry can NOT have free will here, I explained in my previous post why I am not seeing much canonical evidence that he does.

Alla:
>
> When I reread it, it looked to me even less independent than what I
remembered. Nowhere, not ONCE Harry says that he wants to go back. Sure, I
believe that he could have wanted to do that, but he does not say that, does he?
He is asking **Dumbledore** again, what he wants him to do.

Pippin:
Harry wouldn't be asking at all if he weren't conflicted. It is like Catlady
said, "want" is a difficult word. Catlady wants to stay in her warm comfy bed,
but good Catlady gets up and feeds her cats, because, among other things,
staying in her bed indefinitely is not a viable option anyway. Harry wants to
stay where it is warm and light and peaceful -- but that's not really an option
either. The train is going to come and then it's off to the next great
adventure, whatever that might be.

Alla:

My point was that Harry is not making this decision completely on his own and I do not see how what you wrote is rebutting it. How is it not really an option I wonder? You mean that Harry KNOWS that he has to choose pain and suffering and self sacrifice all over again? Maybe he does, but again, I am not seeing how to "go on" is not really a viable option if that's what Harry truly wants or at least tempted to choose. Dumbledore after all is describing this option – take a train and you will go on. But instead of say something like, I cannot make this decision for you Harry, it should be your choice and your choice only, Dumbledore is exerting his influence all over again here and I am so disgusted that even in other world he won't let Harry rest in peace. Of course Harry is conflicted, but would he have made the same decision without Dumbledore's voice? I am not so sure anymore.

It pains me to write this Pippin, seriously it does. I indeed hate Dumbledore with passion as you know, but it saddens me to realize how even the biggest choice of Harry's life was so influenced by the bastard. I will always like Harry's character for great qualities I think he has, but I now also realize that he is probably one of the most dependent Chosen ones I have ever read about. It does not diminish his bravery and sacrifice in my mind, but it does diminish his free will a great deal. Every Chosen one, you name it at the end makes a decision which makes him a better stronger man than his mentor was. Here Harry still makes a decision which Dumbledore's hand at least partially forced him to do IMO

This is the topic where I am so so eager to be convinced otherwise, you cannot imagine how happy I was when I read that scene in DH when Harry decides that Dumbledore's plan is a good one, but eventually I realized that I cannot call it truly independent choice and all that comes out of it either.

JMO,

Alla