Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188989

Pippin:
<SNIP>

"I've got to go back, haven't I?"
"That is up to you."
"I've got a choice?"
"Oh yes"


It is Harry's choice to ask Dumbledore whether he wants Harry to go back. 

Alla:

But of course it is Harry's choice, it is just same as Harry's choosing to go into Forest, I think relying on Dumbledore is what Harry was trained to do.

Pippin:
Dumbledore does not answer the question. He only says that if Harry goes back,
he thinks there is a chance that Harry can finish Voldemort for good, save more
souls from being maimed and more families from being torn apart. That is not
going to be persuasive unless those are things that Harry thinks are worthy.

Alla:

Maybe, but for me to be completely convinced Dumbledore did not need to say this little tirade at all.

Pippin:
I just do not see any hint here that Harry only thinks they are important so
Dumbledore will approve of him.

Alla:

We have to agree to disagree. As I said, I do believe that Harry thinks that those things are important, I am just not sure anymore how much of it is the result of Dumbledore drilling it into him and I am not sure what Harry would have chosen WITHOUT Dumbledore here. If he would not have sought Dumbledore's approval here, IMO he would not have asked Dumbledore at all. And he is not even asking as if he would have asked the comrade, the equal, for all Dumbledore supposedly wanting Harry's approval. It is not "What would you have done?", it is not "what is your opinion"?" It is **Do you want me to go back**?


Pippin:

I do not think JKR sees anything wrong with Harry needing wisdom, experience
and knowledge from others. The alternative would be for Harry to think he always
knows best. That's dangerously macho -- a usual Gryffindor fault, one of
Dumbledore's worst, and I for one am glad to see Harry get over it.

To me she is saying that if we were not willing to be dependent at all, we
would end up like the Voldemort soul, who had so little use for other people
that he completely destroyed his ability to connect with them.


Alla:

And to me there is world of difference between needing wisdom, experience and knowledge of others and being trained to have certain frame of mind for most of your young life, between what Dumbledore did to Harry. I certainly agree there is nothing wrong with connecting with people and having friends and family to rely upon, but Chosen one still has to show independent thinking at the end.  Percy Jackson certainly does not show any desire to toss aside his human mom at the end of the Rick Riordan's series, does he? But I would never doubt that he became a man in book five and he is few years younger than Harry. Well, I think Rick Riordan did another amazing thing as I am sure I said before, he did a real twist with the Prophecy, something that IMO JKR did not do either. Will from Dark is Rising does not show any desire to toss aside his human family, does he not? In fact I am left with the feel that he would cherish and treasure them and listen to their opinions in the human part of his life, despite the fact that he would have to eventually some day stand alone to guard the task which is given to him. Chosen from Tomas Sniegovski's "Fallen" series IS left with very much alive (sort of) father at the end of the series to work together at the task they have left. I can give so many more examples of that. But all of these guys are coming of age at the end of the series. They are achieving something what their elders, mentors, etc for various reasons were unable to achieve and younger generation did better in a sense. I do not want Harry to stand alone without help of the wisdom of his elders, but in the genre JKR is working with, coming of age, triumph should be shown in some way. As she said it herself – wise man always dies, etc, etc, etc. And in this genre Chosen **has to** come out of age, thus at least on the symbolic level I needed Harry to make a  decision in complete independence from Dumbledore. Sadly poor guy could not achieve it even when Dumbledore is not there IMO. I know, Harry agreeing to obey Dumbledore is what you are counting as Harry's coming of age, but to me it is not adequate enough.

I just had a thought. Maybe Harry naming his son after Snape is what I should truly count as coming of age, at least it seems to be truly independent from everybody lol.

JMO,

Alla