Harry's alleged debt to Dumbledore and Snape WAS: Re: Chapter Discussion

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190858



> Pippin:
> Sure, get rid of the Elder Wand, get rid of the horcruxes, give Harry his father's all too legendary dueling skills, and  Harry could survive without allies who are shrewder and more powerful than he is (in some ways) and can't resist taking advantage of it sometimes. 

Alla:

I said I found Elder's wand stuff to be convoluted and I do, I do not remember wanting to get rid of Horcruxes or give Harry legendary dueling skills. In fact, let me say it again and again I am overall happy with the narrative as it happened. Reader being unhappy with one or several elements in the story does not necessarily equal wanting to rewrite the story and I would never say to the author that the book should have been different. What I *am* saying however that some elements including the Elder wand did not work for me. There is a difference IMO.

Lets take Horcruxes for example. One of the fascinations of Harry Potter for me before OOP came out was trying to guess the ending of the saga. I am an avid reader, but I will not be lying when I say that in NO book series that I have read had it been so hard for me to guess the ending... before OOP came out that is. When Prophecy was revealed I groaned, hey it did not take a genuis to figure out the general idea of the ending IMO, Harry is destined to fight Voldemort because he is a Chosen one and he will either win or he will loose (likely to win but I was never completely sure that he will survive). I am not saying that Prophecy was bad per se, just that it is such a cliche of the genre and it was up to her to give it fresh twist or not. So, I can understand how JKR wanted to bring some excitement to it and came up with what is the word? MucGuffins?  To me she succeeded with Horcruxes because it played very well with the theme of sacrifice and Harry's connection to Voldemort and made me shake my head at Elder wand. No, scratch that, not even at Elder wand per se, because it was a nice fairy tale, at who the heck is the master of the stick and why. 


But no, overall I liked Horcruxes and Harry not having legendary dueling skills.


Pippin:
> Give the WW a tradition of shared sacrifice, and maybe they could have banded together effectively -- we were all expecting that, right, because that's what stories like this are supposed to teach? But what if our stories didn't teach that? 

Alla:

What if the stories do not teach that? Absolutely nothing. My point was that Dumbledore did not even TRY to start developing such culture and that we see that it is possible, that people who were Dumbledore's comrades ARE able to do that, but Dumbledore effectively tied their hands AND crippled Harry's and his friends, when he forbade Harry to share information with them IMO.

Pippin:
> JKR is writing about a culture that didn't develop in that direction, whose traditions are, or have become,  separatist, exclusionary and individualistic to an extreme. Dumbledore pleads for unity and loses his job, the Hat asks for unity and Harry scoffs. With Voldie at the gates  the Slytherins are ousted, and a number of Ravenclaws, Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors do not choose to fight. 

Alla:

Yes, but those who KNEW Harry were all fighting together at the end and instead of giving them common goal of helping Harry Dumbledore crushed it.


Pippin:
> Of Harry's defenders in the Battle of Hogwarts, how many are there only because Dumbledore protected them or their families when no one else would have tried? Hagrid, Lupin, Firenze,  Grawp, Kreacher, even Narcissa Malfoy...would Harry be alive if it wasn't for them? 

Alla:

I think that all of them are there for something bigger than that and no, I do not see that any of them is of any help for Harry's survival. That's my point. They could have helped MUCH more if only given a chance. And yes, Narcissa helped, of course she did.