Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron

[jules]

No: HPFGUIDX 190499


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> Alla:
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> See, this I never understood in all years we debated Prank and never will. As I said, while I am more likely to conclude that it was indeed teenage idiocy, I am more than willing to entertain the possibility that Sirius wanted Snape dead. I do not buy it, but it is entirely possible, unfortunately we will never know what was in his head. But saying that Snape was just stupid to walk into the situation and Sirius was deliberately setting him up for a fall to me assumes that Snape is just less responsible for his own choices than Sirius for his. Did Sirius drug him there? No, quite the contrary. Sirius answered the question Snape was dying to know. But there is to me absolutely no way that Sirius is in any way responsible for Snape's *choice* to go there. He divulged the information that he had no business to speak of, and I absolutely agree he was setting *Remus* for a fall, hopefully not deliberately, but who cares? Remus had no choice whatsoever, but to be the part of it, Snape had all the choice in the world.


Julie:
I actually agree with you. Snape did have all the choice in the world and no one drugged him or forced him to go there. I do think Snape is responsible for his choices. I also think Sirius deliberately set him up. The difference I think between us is what we think each knew. The text to me implies that Snape may have suspected Remus was a werewolf but that he did not expect to be open to attack when he went to the Shrieking Shack. Sirius knew he would be open to direct attack (that Remus was not in any way bound or restrained) and with that knowledge allowed Snape to head straight into likely death. Sirius may not have thought that out, but it's clear James realized that likely result, given that he rushed to the Shack and saved Snape. 

Julie previously:

> > Also, despite Dumbledore's ability to keep Snape silent about Lupin's true nature (easy enough with a mere threat of expulsion--Lupin goes then Snape also goes), I can't see that Snape went to the Shrieking Shack to kill Lupin. Snape even as a teenager is smart and a voracious researcher, so if he went there to kill a werewolf he certainly would have taken something with him to do the job, and would have been prepared to protect himself at all costs. He would never have been caught so flat-footed, only surviving by the quick actions of his most erstwhile enemy, James Potter. Makes no sense at all, IMO. 
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> Alla:
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> It makes perfect sense to me, but of course I see Snape in less charitable light than you do, I mean to show Lily indeed that he was right what was in there and to be a hero? He was dying to catch Sirius and to be a hero, no? Also he seemed to think of himself as master of DADA, so to me it will be perfectly in character for Snape to want to show what he can do and kill the "dark creature" with spells. And what would you think he should have taken with him besides his wand and his knowledge of the spells?

Julie:
I think Snape wanted to catch the Mauraders at something, thus proving to Lily that he was right about them all along. And to get them expelled for whatever they were up to would have certainly been a nice bonus. 

As for what Snape should have taken with him, how about something that would actually kill a werewolf? I'm sure he took his wand but if he had knowledge of spells that would kill a werewolf (are there any, BTW?) then surely we would hear that Snape was trying to use them when James saved him. I can't see James keeping that fact a secret from Sirius (who would certainly have used it against Snape later when Harry brought up the incident).

I think our main differences are how we see the characters. As you say, you see Snape in a more negative light. I certainly don't see Snape as a nice boy during his years at Hogwarts. But then neither was Sirius, nor James, IMO. In fact, I would say Sirius and James were actually meaner than Snape from the ages of 11 to 15 or so. They really had little to recommend them, explaining Lily's antipathy toward them. 

Yes, everything changed later. But short of the fact that Snape was sorted into Slytherin (and was ugly and weird), there was no reason for James and Sirius to originally target Snape for mistreatment. I don't believe they had some sort of foresight that Snape was "evil" (and of course he actually wasn't in the end), and even if they had, it still gave them no right to treat him the way they did, IMO. It just made them even worse than he was, given they claimed to be on the side of "right" or "good." JKR hates bullies (ironically), I hate hypocrites.

And yes, Snape gave as good as he got. But again, I'm not arguing that Snape was a nice kid in school. I'm arguing that James and Sirius were even less nice kids, yet they did pretty much get away with it, because of the split between Gryffindor and Slytherin and the bias of the teachers as well as (sadly) the Headmaster. Which is as much a condemnation of the whole House system at Hogwarts, but that would be a whole other subject...

Julie