Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 190670

 
> Alla:
> 
> Yep and I lost count how many times I said the very same thing in this thread :-) I am objecting to Snape not being responsible at all, because he was you know, forced to go there by Sirius' manipulations, even if Sirius did not tag him along on the chain, or told him that there was Lily there, or staff like that. My god I was worried that this fanfiction thingies will come true.

Pippin:
I didn't say  that Sirius's manipulation forced Snape to go there. The term  "manipulation"  as I'm using it refers to a style of communication.  It doesn't imply that the communication succeeds in  getting the victim to do what the manipulative person wants, so it doesn't matter whether the victim already wanted to do as the manipulator intends. 

We don't know exactly what Sirius said to Snape, just as we don't know exactly what Snape said to Sirius when he told him that Harry might have gone to the MoM. But it's hard to imagine that in either case they managed to set aside the habits of a lifetime and speak civilly.

Even Dumbledore does not claim that Snape would have been civil to Sirius, only that Sirius was too old and wise to be influenced by taunting. That implies that the young and foolish can be influenced by taunting. It doesn't mean they've lost their free will, only that they allow the taunting to become a factor in their decision.

I think that Sirius acted with the intention of getting Snape in trouble, and with complete indifference as to whether Snape emerged from the trouble dead, alive or bitten by a werewolf, because he did not think beyond the moment when Snape realized how much trouble he was actually in. And because Sirius did not think beyond that moment, he did not realize that he was acting with complete indifference towards Lupin also. 


 Snape acted in a similar fashion, IMO. He wanted to get Lupin and  James in trouble in order to show that James was not worthy of Lily. He acted with complete indifference as to whether Lupin and James emerged from the trouble alive, dead, or at the mercy of the WW's criminal justice system (is JKR comparing it to a werewolf? LOL!), because he never thought beyond the moment when Lily realized what toerags they were.

Later on, as a DE, his callousness is not simply a function of his thoughtlessness. He knows that he is part of a conspiracy to murder people whom the WW regards as innocent and harmless.  Their lives don't matter, as long as Snape gets what he wants. But because he cannot imagine any reasonable person wanting to harm Lily, he doesn't see his actions as threatening her until it is too late. 

Certainly there's some poetic meaning in sending Snape out to the Shrieking Shack three times. It invites us to consider whether Snape has changed any, and it points out that Snape is a much more dynamic character than Sirius. We don't have the same kind of prompting to look back over Sirius's life.

Sirius does say, in OOP, that he is not proud of how he behaved towards Snape. But  he never got as far as telling Snape that.  Snape, OTOH, does convey his remorse over Lily to Harry, and Harry accepts that it was sincere. 

Harry isn't upset that Snape never agonized over what happened to James and himself...what would be the point? Snape couldn't possibly have felt worse than he did already. 

Pippin