Some speculations on the night at GH

[Lyn J. Mangiameli]

Hi Charm,
Some counter-speculations below. All of this is just tossing stuff out for the fun of it.

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Bowen" <dontask2much at y...> wrote:
> From: "Lyn J. Mangiameli"
> 
> <Charme note: liberally snipped an engaging post for conciseness - please 
> forgive>
> 
And now I am snipping all of mine
> 
> Charme:
> 
> I can understand and agree with some of your points, Lyn. One I particularly 
> agree with is the significance of LV actually at GH; JKR has said that as 
> we've seen, LV rather likes his hencemen to do his dirty work. So his actual 
> presence there means something I'm sure, however the Potters are a couple 
> who have thrice defied him, no easy mark for the DeathEaters and people LV 
> may have thought he needed to take care of himself based on his supposed 
> limited knoweldge of the prophecy contents. 

Lyn now, keeping all of Charme's post because it provides canon background. 

"Thrice defied him." I'm unable to get much of a grasp of what this entails (which 
obviously is the intention of JKR and not you). Defied covers a lot of territory. Simply 
saying "no" can be considered defiance, simply failing to act can be considered defiance, 
actively choosing to join with one's enemy can be considered defiance. I sometimes find 
that thrice defied is interpreted as meaning the Potters engaged in acts that were of a 
direct and immediate threat to LV. Frankly, I think may assume too much. Thus, I don't 
think that LV was necessarily afraid or even worried about the powers of James and Lilly 
themselves. Indeed, I think his actions with Lilly suggest that he didn't see her as any 
significant threat at all.  One is also given the impression there was little time between 
James telling Lilly to run and LV appearing before her. Yes James may have fought bravely, 
even valiantly, but I would suggest that he was a trivial foe for LV (particularly given the 
MOM duel with DD where his ability to both send and overcome spells was revealed ) and 
was not a worry at GH.  I also would suggest that LV by nature is confident in his 
wizarding powers, and would not have felt threatened in his ability to prevail over the 
Potters. Now a DD trap is another matter, but it appears to be little evidence that LV ever 
considered this.

I do agree with  you that there are certainly other, more interpretations of the GH events 
that are more mainstream, though not necessarily that they are more plausible.

Back to Charme and her helpful extended quote from canon.
>Harry's memory of Lily's "take 
> me instead" and a voice's statement to "step aside, silly girl" could be 
> interpreted to mean possession rather than AK, but I have trouble with it - 
> specifically the statements as Harry remembers them in PoA:
> "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!"
> 
>  "Stand aside, you silly girl... stand aside, now...."
> 
>  "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --"
> 
> Numbing, swirling white mist was filling Harry's brain.... What was he 
> doing? Why was he flying? He needed to help her... She was going to die.... 
> She was going to be murdered....
> 
>  He was falling, falling through the icy mist.
> 
>  "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy....
> 
>  Presumably, Harry recalls Lily specifically saying "take me, kill me 
> instead."  If we are to assume the memory of her statement is correct, then 
> it can be interpreted as "take my life, kill me instead of Harry."

Lyn now:
You bring up for me another line from that scene that has also troubled me. "Not Harry! 
Please
have mercy
.have mercy
." Now I know this is usually considered to be the final 
pleas of a distraught mother, and well they might be, but I find them troublesome. Why 
would a member of the order, one who has lived through LV's reign of terror, etc. even 
have it come to mind to think that LV might give any weight to pleas for mercy? It just 
doesn't quite match with  my image of someone who has thrice defied LV and who has set 
up a defensive charm that might destroy LV and also save HP.  Again, her pleas appear to 
be suggesting more weakness in the face of a LV attack than is warranted. Rather, I am 
suspicious that they are not again  reminding LV of what they want for him to do, indeed 
virtually inviting LV to attack HP.  An uncommon interpretation, I grant you, but one I 
would suggest is not inconsistent with a prepared plan to save Harry and destroy LV. In 
the larger scheme of things, did Lilly sacrifice herself solely to save Harry, or might she 
have quite deliberately sacrificed herself to save the WW as well as her child?

Back to Charme:
> I also 
> think another plausible explanation for why, during LV's and Harry's wand 
> episode in the GoF graveyard, we didn't see the curse which took LV out of 
> his body - first LV didn't die (and all the people who came out of his wand 
> did die) and second, what if LV's AK curse was interrupted by Lily's 
> sacrifice? I can easily see where LV wings an AK curse at Harry and Lily 
> *flings herself into its path.* The curse could have passed thru her, 
> killing her, to Harry and releasing whatever protection he had to bounce it 
> back to LV.

Lyn now:
 I have yet to be satisfied by any explanation that suggests that the effects of a spell 
emitted from a wand would not be reproduced. We should have some ghostly image for 
the TR/LV body being destroyed, or the explosion, etc. The idea of an AK passing through 
one person into another tends to be belied by all the evidence we have of things 
successfully blocking an AK (tombstones, the many instances at the MOM--which granted, 
are mostly inanimate). So,  I find (of course many may disagree) the burden is on those 
who believe LV used his wand to AK Harry to come up with a convincing explanation for its 
absence from the PI in the graveyard. For me, that explanation remains to be offered.


Snipping now several other good points Charme  made, but ending myself with this:

BTW, isn't it interesting that Peter's wand is rather conspicuous by its absence. Peter may 
have an extremely desperate desire to avoid his wand from ever being subject to PI, not 
just by the wizarding world, but by LV.  Just imagine what might become of Peter if LV ever 
checked that wand!

Lyn